Free State Project sets meeting

Free State Project sets meeting

Many people savor New Hampshire because it espouses free living, taxes less than other states, offers a decent job market and has a coastline – granted not the longest of shorelines but it touches an ocean nonetheless.

So don't be surprised if 20,000 liberty-oriented people move here this decade. The very things that make New Hampshire attractive to its citizens also entice the members of the Free State Project.

Claiming 2,000 members, the project has a goal of creating a "free state" in America. The group does not wish to secede from the United States, but only limit its government.

"We're not trying to change the country. We just want to create a sphere of liberty where people can live their lives in peace," said Jason Sorens, Free State Project president and founder.

New Hampshire places high on the project's wish list of 10 desirable states. The others are Vermont, Maine, North and South Dakota, Delaware, Montana, Idaho, Alaska and Wyoming.

The project will vote on the state if it reaches 5,000 members. If the project does not reach 20,000 members by 2006, though, it would likely fold.

The project – a nonprofit organization – invites free-minded people to sign a statement of intent. The document asks that a member move to the chosen state and "exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty and property."

Essentially that means a member should but does not have to vote. Non-voters can encourage others in making the free state happen through other means, such as activism and demonstrations, Sorens said.

Once in a state, the project would aim to cut the size and scope of government by two-thirds. Most members support policies such as abolition of all income taxes, elimination of regulatory bureaucracies, repeal of most gun control and drug prohibition laws, complete free trade, decentralization of government and wide-scale privatization, according to the project's Web site.

New Hampshire appeals to the society for a variety of reasons. Foremost, New Hampshire has fewer registered voters than larger states, hence guaranteeing society members a greater voice.

The state?s good economy will also help soothe the move of 20,000 project members, although many have their own businesses so settling in a new state would not prove that troublesome, Sorens said. Coastal access means less dependency on the U.S. market, and the state's "Live Free or Die" motto suggests a potential for greater independence, he said.

"A lot of people are supporting New Hampshire," Sorens said. "We find its culture and history attractive to us."

People have expressed doubts and fears of the project's goals, Sorens said.

"Many of those drastic fears are unfounded," he said. "They've expressed opposition to and fear of changing public policy, but many are already favorable to our policies. We're not out to change a state but make it more like itself: hold politicians accountable and give more control of the government back to the people."

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Alaska Carry

Pending Legislation of Interest for NH Residents: HB 1271 for "Alaska Carry"

On the FSP Forum from 2/4/04:

Jason... On February 17, 2004 @ 10:30 A.M. Room 204 L.O.B. Concord, New Hampshire my House Bill 1271 repealing the "Licence to Carry" statute will be open for "Public Hearing". The committee will hear all who wish to speak as well as those who support my effort simply be signing on the "Blue sheet" checking in favor of passage. I need all the help to restore our birth right before the corporate government converted a right to privilege for production of cash flow.

Thanks for any help the organization can provide, even a post card (mailed to: "Public Saftey Committee" • Legislative Office Building, Room 204 • Concord, New Hampshire 03301) supporting the repeal will help. The more the better... Thanks much!

Dick Marple
Representative District #37

[More info on this bill: www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2004/hb1271.html]

New Hampshire House of Representatives
Criminal Justice and Public Safety Committee
Mailing List

• David A. Welch, Chairman
  PO Box 570
  Kingston, NH 03848-0570
  Phone: (603)642-4402
  Email: repdawelch@hotmail.com

• John E. Tholl Jr.
  41 Kimball Hill Rd
  Whitefield, NH 03598-3645
  Phone: (603)837-2278
  Email: jetjr2@earthlink.net

• Bob M. Fesh
  27 Claire Ave
  Derry, NH 03038-4220
  Phone: (603)434-1550
  email:
  

• Constance A. Jones
  PO Box 975
  Grantham, NH 03753-0975
  Phone: (603)863-8395
  email: N/A
  

• Richard E. Kennedy
  PO Box 278
  Contoocook, NH 03229-0278
  Phone: (603)228-3250
  Email: stretchnh@aol.com

• Karl I. Gilbert
  103 Bay Rd
  Newmarket, NH 03857-1739
  Phone: (603)659-3260
  email: N/A
  

• Stephen H. Nedeau
  PO Box 436
  Meredith, NH 03253-0436
  Phone: (603)279-4794
  Email: shnedeau@fcgnetworks.net

• Stanley E. Stevens
  PO Box 613
  Wolfeboro, NH 03894-0613
  Phone: (603)569-2410
  Email: 4star@metrocast.net

• E Albert Weare
  30 Forest Ct
  Seabrook, NH 03874-4020
  Phone: (603)474-9454
  Email: aweare@aol.com

• Alan B. Bemis
  47 Holly Park Ln
  Rochester, NH 03867-4808
  Phone: (603)674-8319
  Email: abemis@msn.com

• Elbert I. Bicknell
  99 Mountain View Rd
  Deerfield, NH 03037-1210
  Phone: (603)463-9783
  Email: redryder82@metrocast.net

• Douglas K. Fish
  25 Wetmore St
  Keene, NH 03431-3911
  Phone: (603)357-1732
  Email: fish@cheshire.net

• James H. Oliver
  1465 Hooksett Rd #119
  Hooksett, NH 03106-1862
  Phone: (603)485-2226
  email: N/A
  

• Donald C. Smith
  PO Box 312
  Raymond, NH 03077-0312
  Phone: (603)895-2807
  email: N/A
  

• George D. Winchell
  60 East Rd
  Atkinson, NH 03811-2220
  Phone: (603)362-4249
  Email: gdwinchell@aol.com

• William V. Knowles
  12 Wellington Ave
  Dover, NH 03820-2002
  Phone: (603)742-5681
  Email: wvknowles2@aol.com

• Roger R. Berube
  15 Stackpole Rd
  Somersworth, NH 03878-1627
  Phone: (603)692-5653
  email: N/A
  

• Frank D. Callaghan
  PO Box 1711
  Rochester, NH 03866-1711
  Phone: (603)332-1860
  email: N/A
  

• Lori A. Movsesian
  15 Berkeley St
  Nashua, NH 03064-2310
  Phone: (603)889-1669
  Email: movsesian28@yahoo.com

• Laura C. Pantelakos
  528 Dennett St
  Portsmouth, NH 03801-3621
  Phone: (603)436-2148
  email: N/A
  

• Timothy N. Robertson
  185 Daniels Hill Rd
  Keene, NH 03431-5704
  Phone: (603)352-7006
  Email: trobertson@monad.net

Eminent Domain

Eminent Domain Abuses As its name implies, the Bill of Rights is all about guaranteeing individual rights; exceptions are noted only for extraordinary circumstances such as war or the commission of a crime, and even then procedures must be followed strictly. Two of the amendments specifically guarantee security in one's home, so it is strange that the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment ("... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.") implies an exception, "for public use." This loophole addresses one important difficult situation, known as the holdout problem: if a project (e.g. a road or park) requires purchasing land from many people, a very few of them may refuse to sell at the market price and "hold out" for a much higher price that would be impossible to offer to everyone. The power of Eminent Domain, as it is known in the United States, authorizes a government to forcibly purchase land at a price that is "just" (usually interpreted to mean the market rate). Exceptions should always be questioned, and such a power does pose obvious risks: An owner may refuse to sell not as a greedy attempt to negotiate an exorbitant price but because he or she truly values the property at more than its market value. Common examples are an elderly resident, for whom moving would be a shock, and someone for whom the home has strong sentimental value, e.g. someone who was born in the house or whose family has lived there for generations. The property may be assessed lower than the true market value, perhaps because of a mistake or dishonesty. The recent Supreme Court case of Kelo vs. New London has put Eminent Domain in the news. A developer wanted to turn 90 residential acres in New London, Connecticut into commercial real estate, and persuaded the city to help obtain it from the current residents (one of whom was an 87-year-old woman who had been born in her house). The city invoked Eminent Domain under the questionable justification that the developed property would provide greater tax revenue, and thus would constitute "public use". The Supreme Court decision in favor of New London has been largely condemned by people on both the left and right (how could anyone support taking old people's houses and giving them to a heartless corporation?), but its implications are more subtle. The result was in some ways a surreal inversion from a parallel universe: the left-wing justices, who normally oppose federalism, did not hold that government necessarily has the power to use Eminent Domain for this wider purpose, merely that the US Constitution does not forbid it. State and local governments are thus still able to enact stronger guarantees. The conservative justices, who normally support a stricter interpretation of the Constitution and favor federalism, voted in the direction of increasing individual rights, yes, but via a decrease in the states' power. The long-term result has been cheering to both federalists and champions of individual liberty, as many individual states and cities have responded by taking action to enact laws and ordinances restricting eminent domain to prevent future New London-style abuses. Perhaps states can be trusted to do the right thing after all? People can always vote with their feet to places like New Hampshire, where takings for commercial purposes are prohibited. For more information: Institute for Justice • Castle Coalition • Reason Public Policy Institute

...and Responses Two clever projects have sprung up to draw attention to the Supreme Court decision in Kelo vs. New London. Both aim to take the houses of the very Supreme Court Justices that created the new unjust expansion of Eminent Domain, using their own opinions against them. Both projects have involved some participants in the Free State Project, though some other Free-Staters have denounced this method of protest or retaliation as itself unjust. The Free State Project takes no position on the projects themselves, though our position on Eminent Domain is derivable from our Statement of Intent. Constitution Park The Coalition of New Hampshire Taxpayers is promoting a project to seize the New Hampshire homes of Justices Souter and Breyer in order to build a "Constitution Park". The decision will be made by a vote of the townspeople. More Links: Coalition of New Hampshire Taxpayers Lost Liberty Hotel In the wake of Kelo v. City of New London, private developer, Logan Darrow Clements, has applied to take possession of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Souter's New Hampshire residence for the purpose of building "The Lost Liberty Hotel," featuring the "Just Desserts Cafe," and a museum dedicated to the loss of American freedom. Clements discussed the Lost Liberty Hotel on Fox TV's "Hannity & Colmes" on 7/22/05, and gave a nice mention of the FSP. Also appearing was a Weare resident who supported Clements. Here are video clips:   Windows Media (wmv) QuickTime (mov) FSP mention 2.8 mb 3.4 mb Full segment 8.3 mb 10.1 mb "It Could Happen to You!" – Hannity & Colmes follow the Lost Liberty Hotel story. Watch these interviews with FSP participant Logan Darrow Clements: 15 Dec 2005 • 16 Dec 2005 In January 2006, the Lost Liberty Hotel effort will sponsor a rally in Weare, NH, to gather signatures from Weare residents. More Links: Supreme Court justice faces boot from home? Developer wants 'Lost Liberty Hotel' built upon property of David Souter Proposal: Replace Souter's home with 'Lost Liberty Hotel' Freestar Media's Press release on the Lost Liberty Hotel Project FSP Forum thread Stopping Eminent Domain Abuse - Reason Foundation Eminent Domain Protester 'believes Absolutely In What She's Doing' - The Day

Back to Issues in the News

PorcFest 6/21/04 Update

PORCUPINES! WE ARE ARRIVING! STARTING IN TWO DAYS THE FREE STATE PROJECT AND OUR NEW HOME, THE FREE STATE, BECOME A REALITY TO ALL OF US!

This will be the last "Porc Fest Spam" touting the First Annual Porcupine Freedom Fest and Night on the Barricades. The party has been in planning for more than a half year. In a few days we all come together to celebrate the most important politico-philosophical movement in the past 100 years. I very much look forward to meeting you all, and talking to everyone, at the party. Michele and I will be there starting Wednesday night at Rogers Campground in Lancaster, New Hampshire (the Free State). It will be one of the largest convocations of libertarians and other freedom-lovers in the past 50 years. More information follows below:

1. All are welcome to attend the Porc Fest. The Free State Project does not charge for attendance. Rogers Campground will charge a $3.00 daily guest fee to any attendees who are on-premises but not spending the night at a Rogers campsite, motel room, or cabin. All off-site lodgers and day attendees should stop at the office on their way into the facility and pay the $3.00 there. "Day trippers" are most welcome, as are all citizens of good cheer and intent.

2. I have been contacted by various Porcupine supporters who are lucky enough to live in the Free State already. They will converge on the Porc Fest from all parts of New Hampshire, and be "day trippers." Talk to them all. They are our vanguard, our welcomers, and our helpers.

3. The Porcupine Lunch scheduled for Friday, June 25, 2004 at noontime is in limbo. It may be a communal meal, or everyone may scatter. Right now, it's "anarchy in action." Let's see what we make happen....

4. Rogers campground has a little cafe on-site that serves breakfast and dinner. The cafe apparently changed their hours to opening at 7:00 am, so the hiking group canned their plans for cooking a breakfast for the hikers. It's all on the forum thread about the hike. Hikers who are going up Mt. Liberty on Friday morning, meet at and around the campground cafe that morning.

5. The "We'll Be There" list is now being retired for the year. If your name is On The List, you are now part of history. We'll double the number attending next year, but there can only be a First Time. This is it. My thanks go out to all of you who have committed to attend.

6. There was previously scheduled a "Grafton Tour" on the Porc Fest schedule. Then all hell broke loose. It was decided that everyone else should have the chance to visit THEIR favorite part of the Free State (there are several regions, and many towns that are being "pushed" by various Porcupines). Thus, if you're interested in visiting a specific part of New Hampshire, plan on talking to people about putting together a tour on Sunday morning. (Michele and I will still be going to Grafton and getting a tour from some of the friendly residents there.) Keep in mind also that the Free State Project has a Welcome Wagon to help Porcupines find support within the state. Take a look to see what area of NH you're most interested in...and plan to talk to the coordinator for that area during the Porc Fest!

7. All current information on the Web about the Porcupine Fest can be seen here.

8. An important but informal seminar has been scheduled at the Porc Fest for Thursday, June 24, 2004 at 3:00 p.m. at FSP President Amanda Phillips' Campsite #22: Phil Denisch will give an "FSP Speakers Workshop." Learn how to speak to groups more clearly and effectively about the Free State Project. Polish your public speaking skills!

9. One of the Porc Fest coordinators, Dawn Lincoln (thanks Dawn!) reports that "my kids will be offering bag lunches for sale early every morning on a preorder/prepay basis." Look for them. Little capitalist tykes offering a valuable service and making a buck in the process! Great!

10. For the Saturday evening barbeque, meal tickets may be purchased at the Rogers campground office. Porc Fest coordinator George Reich says: Please emphasize for the Saturday night meal that people should buy their meal tickets at the Rogers office as they check in. This will help keep us from doing the work of being ticket-pushers. Thanks!.

    The menu? Glad you asked!
    Barbeque chicken
    Hamburgers
    Hot dogs
    (choice of two of above)
    Macaroni salad
    Chips and dip
    
    The cost? $6.50. Get your tickets at the Rogers Campground office.

11. Everyone bring your camcorders and film away! This is a historic coming together, and we'll all want to have film---lots of film---to remember it.

See the final schedule (much amended) for the First Annual Porcupine Freedom Fest and Night on the Barricades.

BRINGING LITTLE PORCUPINES?
Children and Family Recreational Activities at the Porc Fest (put on by Dawn Lincoln)

[Back to Festival page]

NH - Chat

NH and the FSP - Chat

This Thursday evening Nov 4, 2004 at 9pm ET, we have a panel of NH residents available to answer your questions about NH and the FSP. Please bring your questions and join our chat at freestateproject.org/chat. The NH residents include George Reich, Rich Tomasso, Jack Shimek and Fred Mitchell. Hope to see you there!

Other chats

Here's a transcript of the chat that took place:

[21:13] <Kat> Tonight we have NH residents Fred Mitchell (freedomfred) from Nahsua

[21:14] <Kat> Jack Shimek (jaqeboy) from Amherst, NH

[21:14] <jaqeboy> I'm a native of Texas, Mechanical Engineer, have been in NH for 27 years

[21:14] <freedomfred> I've lived in NH for over 6 years now.

[21:14] <JonM> I've lived near NH for 10!

[21:14] <Kat> and Rich Tomasso (Rich_T) also from Nashua

[21:15] <Kat> Great, Jon...you can answer questions too :)

[21:15] <Rich_T> Hi! I've got a background in software and writing/editing. Done plenty of campaign and media work for the LP and others.

[21:15] <matthew> Jaqe, I'm in Texas and studying to be an Engineer.

[21:15] <freedomfred> When I relocated here, I had a choice between NH and MA -- well, the choice was pretty darn clear cut!

[21:15] <jaqeboy> Yay!

[21:15] <JonM> I can tell you how ugly route 3 looks during commute time

[21:15] <jaqeboy> go for it

[21:16] <Pat> how ugly is it?

[21:16] <Kat> it's not LA

[21:16] <matthew> How is employment for Engineers in NH?

[21:16] <freedomfred> I run a hosting service where I focus mostly on Libertarian-minded clientel.

[21:16] <Rich_T> it's so ugly people look for jobs in NH to avoid it. :)

[21:16] <JonM> http://www.smartraveler.com/scripts/bosmap.asp?city=bos&cityname=Boston

[21:16] <matthew> I'm attending UTSA now.

[21:16] <JonM> click on route 3 on there at about 5:30 tomorrow

[21:16] <jaqeboy> hmm, probably not that great

[21:16] <matthew> :(

[21:17] <jaqeboy> I dropped out and run a handyman/home repair biz right now

[21:17] <matthew> really?

[21:17] <Rich_T> Route 3 should be a lot better once they finished adding a lane each way.

[21:17] <Kat> Several members have started to work on a program to recruit businesses to move to NH

[21:17] <jnoyes> do you need help Ive got all my own tools

[21:17] <jaqeboy> but an old engineering client called me up and I'm doing some work for him again

[21:17] <JonM> they are widening it for all those NH commuters, but they're not being wise about it, only going to 3 lanes instead of 4

[21:17] <Johnson> ooh Rachel Mills is in here

[21:17] <jaqeboy> maybe

[21:17] <Kat> That may help job prospects in many areas

[21:17] <freedomfred> Rt 3 reall ugly -- especially with all the construction -- ugly south of the border, that is.

[21:17] <Johnson> Rachel... you rock..

[21:18] <JonM> when you hit the NH border on route 3 it goes from 2 lanes to about 5

[21:18] <adam> Any particular type of businesses?

[21:18] <JonM> and in a couple of miles right back to 2

[21:18] <Rich_T> doesn't go down to 2 until you leave nashua

[21:18] <JonM> luckily all the mall traffic gets off at the last exit in MA, #36

[21:18] <jnoyes> show of hands who is going to the 2005 porcfest

[21:18] <freedomfred> At that point, it's the Everret TPK, and traffic is tolerable on it.

[21:19] <adam> Where and when?

[21:19] <svillee> I plan to attend the 2005 porcfest

[21:19] <jnoyes> ~25th july

[21:19] <spike> Carol and I are going. - Dan McGuire

[21:19] * Rich_T raises hand

[21:19] <JonM> the mall in Nashua as a little corner cut out of the JC Penny, because that part of the land is in Massachusetts

[21:19] <JonM> and MA wanted to collect sales taxes because of it

[21:19] <adam> Will it be a three day event? What is the best day to attend if one can't be there for the entire event?

[21:20] <Pat> MY hand is up

[21:20] <Pat> can I put it down now?

[21:20] <spike> Saturday

[21:20] <jnoyes> not that I want to tank anyones B&B but my grandmother has a 1/2 acre near manchester NH I plan on camping

[21:20] <russellkanning> porcfest 2005 :)

[21:20] <freedomfred> What's up Pat?

[21:21] <Pat> oh nothing I was raisingmy hand for thrporc fest

[21:21] <jsorens> mary & i will be there of course :)

[21:21] <DubleQwik> Good Evening, All...

[21:21] <jnoyes> evening

[21:21] <freedomfred> Yes, be there.

[21:21] <Kat> I'll be at the next porcfest

[21:22] <jsorens> i have a question, a very specific one

[21:22] <Kat> If you have questions, just go ahead and fire away

[21:22] <jnoyes> oh yeah company is welcome on that little spot of land

[21:22] <freedomfred> I missed the 2004 porcfest much to my regret, but rather extraordinary events were taking place personally. Next year, I will definitely be there.

[21:23] <jsorens> do any of you know anything particularly interesting about new england college in nashua? i applied for a job there.

[21:23] <JonM> there's a college in nashua? <G>

[21:23] <jaqeboy> several

[21:23] <freedomfred> There's the Daniel Webster college

[21:23] <adam> I've thought about going.

[21:23] <Rich_T> I think it's mostly a business school.

[21:23] <JonM> c'mon, you know you want to teach at Dartmouth

[21:23] <freedomfred> and also Rivier -- both in Nashua

[21:23] <jaqeboy> don't knowanything particular about NEC, Nashua

[21:23] <JonM> bastion of free speech that it is

[21:23] <jnoyes> dummy question where is dartmouth?

[21:23] <jsorens> of course i do jon but ill take what i can get ;)

[21:24] <adam> Dartmouth is too liberal!

[21:24] <Rich_T> do you know where the campus is?

[21:24] <JonM> of course, and they need token non liberals

[21:24] <matthew> To those of you who have houses, would you mind sharing what your taxes actually cost you last year?

[21:24] * FTL_Ian points at the user count

[21:24] <Kat> cool, ian

[21:24] <jnoyes> good idea

[21:24] <freedomfred> Daniel Webster is mostly IT oriented. Rivier is mostly Nursing oriented, I believe.

[21:24] <jaqeboy> on Amherst Street

[21:24] <DubleQwik> Is the Free State Project actually moving towards realization?

[21:24] <Rich_T> Revier focuses mostly on liberal arts

[21:24] <jsorens> nec looks like a small liberal arts college, not terribly selective.

[21:25] <JonM> signups have picked up a bit of steam lately

[21:25] <Kat> Several people have moved. We're having an effect on NH already

[21:25] * Lindsey looks at the user count, claps at Ian

[21:25] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:25] <jaqeboy> Daniel Webster College is an aviation school mostly, but added IT, Fred

[21:25] <Mallory> Dartmouth is in Hanover, jnoyes

[21:25] <jnoyes> thanks

[21:25] <matthew> My wife asks "Do you actually have real seasons, or is there just a month of summer and cold for the rest of the year"?

[21:25] <adam> As an outsider I've noticed tremendous progress in the last six months.

[21:25] <Rich_T> clap for Kat too, she promoted the hell out of this chat.

[21:25] <JonM> heh

[21:25] <svillee> My property tax bill is $1352 for 2004

[21:25] <JonM> there was no spring this year

[21:25] <freedomfred> Ok, right. Forgot about that. After all, DW is right next to the airport in Nashua.

[21:25] <JonM> but we had several months of very nice summer

[21:25] <adam> Northern Maine has three days of summer and eight months of winter.

[21:25] <Adam_Selene> Wait for my code-word DubleQwik. When I give the codeword 'TANSTAAFL' the FSP revolution begins ;)

[21:26] <JonM> heck it was 70 last sunday

[21:26] <Johnson> So, I found this interesting...

[21:26] <Johnson> http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/house/

[21:26] <Johnson> take a look at VT

[21:26] <jnoyes> wow I looked at a 36000 house in harrisburg taxes were 3000 a year

[21:26] <Kat> I've seen two seasons here, since I moved in June

[21:26] <freedomfred> Taxes in Nashua are a bit steep -- I'm paying approx $5000 a year.

[21:26] <spike> Progress? The election results seem negative to me.

[21:26] <JonM> nashua and salem have the benefit of the retail businesses to offset their taxes, but then they go and have all those services

[21:26] <Kat> My taxes should be about $900

[21:27] <DubleQwik> LOL...Adam, I waited in the 70s for "the revolution" and then spent 20 years in the Army when

[21:27] <DubleQwik> the revolution faded away....

[21:27] <matthew> I think here a $140K house will be taxed ~4200/yr

[21:27] <Rich_T> johnson - Bernie sanders is a socialist, not an independent.

[21:27] <JonM> the revolution will not be televised, it will be streamed

[21:27] <JonM> and you can thank Jim Jeffords for a gallon of milk costing me $3 today

[21:27] <Johnson> Rich_T: I just thought it was interesting how 3rd party candidates dominated there

[21:27] <freedomfred> We *are* the revolution in progress

[21:27] <Johnson> and there only

[21:28] <jnoyes> speaking of revolution what specific bits of legislation will FSB for or against

[21:28] <jnoyes> fsp

[21:28] <Johnson> and seemingly in every county in VT

[21:28] <JonM> there 3rd party cause they're too nuts for the democrats

[21:28] <Johnson> seems like there is something to be learned there

[21:28] <jaqeboy> Jason, do you want us to check on anything at NewEngland College, Nashua?

[21:28] <Rich_T> VT does have a strong Progressive party and some other points of strength for 3rd parties.

[21:28] <Mallory> Tish

[21:28] <FTL_Ian> FSP does not support or oppose legislation

[21:28] <FTL_Ian> jnoyes

[21:28] <Johnson> Rich_T: how did they attain that I wonder?

[21:28] <Rich_T> I'm sure Hardy Macia could fill you in better though.

[21:28] <jsorens> each of the northern new england states has its own character... vt is independent & socialist-leaning, nh is independent and libertarian-leaning, & me is independent and populist

[21:29] <Mallory> I lived in VT...they weren't that nuts.

[21:29] <Johnson> that open mindedness to 3rd parties

[21:29] <jnoyes> okay the purpose is to get us there

[21:29] <JonM> MA is the bitch of the Democrats

[21:29] <jsorens> jaqeboy - not really, just wanted to find out any inside info if anyone had any...

[21:29] <jaqeboy> k

[21:29] <jnoyes> but what would the people in NH already there like to see changed or remain the same

[21:29] <Rich_T> depends on whom you ask.

[21:30] <jnoyes> who is here to ask, cus Im asking

[21:30] <FTL_Ian> Hopefully the ones who disagree with us will move away

[21:30] <svillee> I'm actually pretty happy with the way things are now.

[21:30] <freedomfred> The politics in NH is not your normal cup of tea -- which is a good thing in my book.

[21:30] <Mallory> That's nice, Ian, pushing people out of their state :-P

[21:30] <Kat> I'd like to see homeschooling laws loosened up

[21:30] <jnoyes> good what else?

[21:30] <JonM> the further north you go, the more people will seem to be live and let live

[21:31] <adam> Maybe we need to study the politics of Vermont to discover why third parties do well there

[21:31] <svillee> I guess we could dump that interest and dividends tax

[21:31] <JonM> well Jim Jeffords is an Independent, but was elected as a republican, and brings home pork

[21:31] <Rich_T> I think the biggest areas of support FSPers could find are: 1) school choice, 2) lowering taxes, 3) anything else that helps economic development but not turn NH into a strip mall.

[21:31] <freedomfred> I'm homeschooling my daughter again. She was in public school for a couple of months, but grew tired of it.

[21:31] <Kat> Great, Fred!

[21:31] <JonM> need to lower business enterprise tax if you want more businesses to move in

[21:32] <JonM> that's the grouse for companies in northern MA

[21:32] <Bramblecroft> I found the FSP website by searching on the key word "self-sufficiency" What does that term have to do with FSP?

[21:32] <Rich_T> Yeah, we could build a coalition to work on lowering the BET.

[21:32] <adam> business tax should be little or none

[21:32] <JonM> 8.5% is more than Mass charges

[21:32] <jnoyes> personally I like local business but am leery of walmart and trans-nat corporations

[21:32] <freedomfred> None is preferred.

[21:32] <svillee> Does MA have any equivalent tax?

[21:33] <JonM> heh

[21:33] <Rich_T> MA has a personal and business tax, plus a steep capital gains tax.

[21:33] <Kat> I think a lot of freestaters are interested in self sufficiency. There was a lot of talk about setting up a self sufficient community

[21:33] <JonM> there isn't much in Mass that's not taxed

[21:33] <freedomfred> NH also has a dividend tax, which is annoying.

[21:33] <jnoyes> is there one already if not Im starting one

[21:33] <Johnson> Bramblecroft: most FSP memebr are libertarians... you'd do well to read some materials at www.lp.org

[21:33] <JonM> clothes $175 or less per item...food that isn't prepared

[21:33] <JonM> can't think of anything else

[21:33] <matthew> How does the NH Food Tax work?

[21:33] <JonM> prepared foods 8%

[21:33] <JonM> no taxes on unprepared

[21:33] <Rich_T> eating out adds 8%

[21:34] <jaqeboy> It's a room & meals tax

[21:34] <jaqeboy> supposedly to tax the tourists

[21:34] <Bramblecroft> thanks, I will...

[21:34] <freedomfred> If you must work in Mass, they tax income at a 5.6% rate or so.

[21:34] <FTL_Ian> Mallory: no one is pushing people out of NH. Hopefully, they'll wise up and leave on their own, if they don't like the pro-freedom path.

[21:34] <matthew> ah, ok. I was worried it was on groceries. I couldn't believe.

[21:34] <svillee> So even with our existing B E tax, NH should still be attractive to MA businesses.

[21:34] <Johnson> oooh that sucks... I eat out a lot

[21:34] <JonM> 5.35% right now

[21:34] <jaqeboy> not on groceries

[21:34] <Lindsey> Yeah you do

[21:34] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:34] * Mallory pats Ian's head

[21:34] <Mallory> Okay

[21:34] <JonM> nah, I tried to get my business to move to NH, but the BET did it in

[21:35] <Rich_T> NH does have advantage business wise - no personal imcome tax or sales tax attracts workers.

[21:35] <FTL_Ian> Johnson, make your own meals. You do want to be a homeowner, right? Eating out eats right into your mortgage payments.

[21:35] <freedomfred> Lots of good restarunts in the Manchester and Nashua areas.

[21:35] <JonM> the MA income tax was supposed to drop to 5%...love our legislature, the best that money can buy

[21:35] <jnoyes> how much of NH's economic center is Boston?

[21:35] <adam> Florida has a 1% tax on all stock you own. And you pay it every year

[21:35] <Lindsey> Johnson...cooking...

[21:35] <Kat> not like San francisco restaurants though

[21:35] <Mallory> Johnson: Keep food at your house :-P. It's really not that expensive if you know how to shop correctly.

[21:35] <matthew> Are pre-packaged foods like Soda drinks and chips tazed?

[21:35] * Lindsey snickers

[21:35] <JonM> not just stock adam, net worth with exclusions afaik

[21:35] <Kat> I almost never go out to eat any more

[21:35] <Rich_T> We're #4 nationally for venture capital. Fewer licensing laws. I'm pretty sure the cost of living is less all around.

[21:35] <Johnson> I hate cooking

[21:35] <Mallory> Tish

[21:35] <jaqeboy> many people commute into northern Mass, some all the way into Boston

[21:35] <Johnson> mostly becuase I hate cleaning

[21:35] <Lindsey> Do you want me to come cook for you?

[21:35] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:35] <freedomfred> Some good ones as well just south of the border. You can pretty much find your favorite cusine without too much ado.

[21:36] <Kat> woo woo

[21:36] <Mallory> Yeah me and Lindsey will come cook for you, okay?

[21:36] <Mallory> :-P

[21:36] <Johnson> actually I shouldn't say I hate cooking

[21:36] <jnoyes> and ill do dishes ;)

[21:36] <Johnson> hahah

[21:36] <jsorens> matthew: soda & chips not taxed, but prepared sandwiches that you get at the supermarket are

[21:36] <jaqeboy> therewas a snack tax, right?

[21:36] <Lindsey> And I'm going to make your bed

[21:36] <Johnson> I like cooking a lot... I just hate cleaning

[21:36] <FTL_Ian> Johnson: microwave food

[21:36] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:36] <matthew> Thanks jaqe :)

[21:36] <Lindsey> Without extra stuff in it

[21:36] <Mallory> Well fine, we'll clean for you

[21:36] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:36] <JonM> MA meals tax is 5%

[21:36] <Mallory> I like cleaning

[21:36] <Johnson> Ian: GROSS

[21:36] <Mallory> Especially doing dishes

[21:36] <matthew> err. jsorens i eman

[21:36] <Mallory> It's very satisfying

[21:36] <Lindsey> Yeah, what he said

[21:37] <Lindsey> I do dishes quickly, but I also do them well

[21:37] <Johnson> I prefer things made via Toaster Over

[21:37] <Lindsey> I've never used a dishwasher

[21:37] <Johnson> *oven

[21:37] <JonM> heh

[21:37] <JonM> I can cook AND bake!

[21:37] * JonM grins

[21:37] <jnoyes> anyone know any good NH real-estate agents btw

[21:38] <Kat> so dinner at Jon's house?

[21:38] <jaqeboy> whatarea of the state?

[21:38] <freedomfred> My harem cooks for me. :-)

[21:38] <JonM> a few have posted to the forums

[21:38] <jnoyes> pot luck

[21:38] <Kat> I know a couple in the Keene area, jnoyes

[21:38] <jnoyes> coos, grafton

[21:38] <matthew> I was looking at a movers guide, and thoughout most of the state of NH it was cheaper to rent than it is here in San Antonio. however, when considering purchasing, the cost was much higher.

[21:38] <Lindsey> I'm just good at everything I do

[21:38] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:38] <Kat> Grafton yes

[21:38] <JonM> NH does not have the consumer protection laws that MA has for home buyers, so you will need someone to look out for you

[21:38] <jnoyes> explain "look out"

[21:39] <jaqeboy> there is Dave Walthour in Grafton

[21:39] <adam> Cheaper to rent than buy?

[21:39] <Mallory> Okay Lindsey *pats your head*

[21:39] <JonM> make sure the septic system is ok

[21:39] <JonM> things like that

[21:39] <jnoyes> gotcha

[21:39] <jnoyes> whats the soil like

[21:39] <JonM> In MA it's the law you must inspect your septic system before selling your house

[21:39] <jnoyes> lotta sand mounds out there

[21:39] <freedomfred> Depends on where you live.

[21:39] <Kat> Dave Walthour is pro-fsp and a really great guy

[21:39] <Lindsey> Oh you know it's true, Mal

[21:39] <jnoyes> okay where you live then

[21:39] <matthew> adam, yes. on a per year basis. according to homefair.com

[21:39] <svillee> The buyer should always get a full home inspection.

[21:40] <adam> Anyone familiar with Rochester, NH?

[21:40] <jaqeboy> I rent from another libertarian

[21:40] <jaqeboy> and rent a room out to a libertarian

[21:40] <JonM> heh

[21:40] <Mallory> Yeah I know, Lindsey :-P

[21:40] <JonM> rent it forward

[21:40] <jaqeboy> rite

[21:40] <Kat> George Reich couldn't get connected to the chat, but says Hello to everyone and would be willing to answer email questions. He's at greich@freestateproject.org

[21:40] <JonM> did he try a standalone client?

[21:40] <jaqeboy> he's in Rochester

[21:41] <Kat> Dover

[21:41] <adam> Thanks, matthew

[21:41] <jaqeboy> k

[21:41] * JonM knows the IRC

[21:41] <Lindsey> He could try the awful applet-ness on the Free Talk Live website...

[21:41] * Lindsey shudders at the thought

[21:41] <JonM> bah, just install mIRC, it's like a real IRC client

[21:41] <jnoyes> uhm arent I on that?

[21:41] <matthew> The applet wouldn't connect for me. Actually mIRC took forever too.

[21:41] <Rich_T> bersIRC works well too

[21:41] * Mallory pets mIRC

[21:42] <matthew> It tooks 9 tries.

[21:42] <Lindsey> Humm...odd

[21:42] <JonM> I run bersirc on EFNet, but it's a bit...buggy

[21:42] <Lindsey> Jesus

[21:42] <Lindsey> Humm...I've been connected all day with no problems...

[21:42] <Johnson> ian has craplet on his site... =)

[21:42] <jnoyes> hey speaking of internet whats the access like in the white mountains

[21:42] <Mallory> Yeah and I connected up all spiffy like

[21:42] <adam> Jaqeboy, who is in Rochester

[21:42] <matthew> Are the native NHers friendly to the influx of FSPers?

[21:42] <Mallory> Yeah, the one on the Taste of the Goods site is better

[21:43] <Lindsey> They both suck

[21:43] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:43] <jaqeboy> This native says "come on up"

[21:43] <Lindsey> How did I get on Ian's server again?

[21:43] <jnoyes> looking for a high power array like spokane washingtons got

[21:43] <jaqeboy> we need reinforcements

[21:43] <JonM> wow, I'm only .15 behind

[21:43] <Kat> I've not met anyone who was not friendly to freestaters. I usually tell people why I'm here, too

[21:43] <MichaelEdelstein> Hello, everybody.

[21:43] <JonM> you haven't met Kathy Sullivan yet!

[21:43] <adam> I'm interested in Rochester. Anyone from there?

[21:43] <jaqeboy> Geo Reich- actually Dover

[21:43] <Kat> Michael, you made it :)

[21:44] <adam> Thanks

[21:44] <Mallory> I don't know, Lindsey, you need to stop doing that

[21:44] <Lindsey> I do

[21:44] <Lindsey> Hehe

[21:44] <MichaelEdelstein> Yes, I had some visual problems.

[21:44] <Lindsey> I don't know how it happened

[21:45] <Lindsey> Stupid mIRC

[21:45] <Kat> Did you have questions about Rochester, Adam?

[21:45] <Lindsey> I have entirely too many windows open, and I'm getting confused

[21:45] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:45] <jaqeboy> is this a computer technology chat?

[21:45] <JonM> maybe some random people could message you

[21:45] <jaqeboy> never mind

[21:46] <Lindsey> Random people did message me

[21:46] <Johnson> hahahh

[21:46] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:46] <JonM> I remember

[21:46] <Lindsey> On like...three different servers

[21:46] <Mallory> No random people message me

[21:46] <Lindsey> Random people message me all the time

[21:46] * JonM is still sequential

[21:46] <Rich_T> a hazard of aol I guess.

[21:46] <Lindsey> Haha

[21:46] <Kat> Any more questions about NH?

[21:46] <matthew> For the last three years my wife has been begging me to move to the North East. I was adametly against it. After learning of FSP and NH's already libertarian/constitutional-ist tendancies, I am all for it. I am so excited about NH now.

[21:46] <Lindsey> I'm telling Daniel that you're my bitch, Ian...

[21:46] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:47] <Kat> Cool, matthew!

[21:47] <JonM> I like the cnn electoral map, it shows every state dark blue, and NH light blue

[21:47] <jaqeboy> come on up

[21:47] <freedomfred> Come on up!

[21:47] <Kat> I love it here, and I never thought I'd like the east coast

[21:47] <JonM> even when they go to the dark side, they don't go all the way!

[21:47] <Mallory> What's so wrong about the North East, man?

[21:47] <jnoyes> winter

[21:47] <matthew> Yankees! That's what's wrong

[21:47] <Lindsey> Winter is good

[21:47] <JonM> stay inside

[21:47] * matthew is in trouble now.

[21:47] <Lindsey> I love winter

[21:47] <Lindsey> It's my favorite

[21:47] <Kat> I thought people around Boston were supposed to be snotty to outsiders

[21:47] <russellkanning> matthew where do you want to move to?

[21:47] <JonM> some are

[21:48] <Mallory> You'll get used to winter rather quickly

[21:48] <JonM> but those aren't the same people

[21:48] <Rich_T> and the NH vote was a strange phenomenon this year.

[21:48] <Kat> But NHites don't seem to be that way

[21:48] <matthew> Havn't decided where yet, move is still 4+ years off (need to finish school)

[21:48] <freedomfred> The vast majority of Bostonians are cool.

[21:48] <Kat> (in finishing school?)

[21:48] <jsorens> the 'yankees' stereotype is applicable to people in and around new york city, and possibly boston as well. but not in the less urban areas.

[21:48] <JonM> I think half of eastern ma works for the city or state

[21:48] <freedomfred> A handful are somewhat annoying -- but you get that anywhere.

[21:48] <Kat> Haven't met any snotty people in boston

[21:48] <JonM> I'm positive half the voters do

[21:49] <freedomfred> They love their Red Sox, though.

[21:49] <adam> I find Bostonians better to deal with than New Yorkers.

[21:49] <Rich_T> well, yeah.

[21:49] <Mallory> I don't like either, personally.

[21:49] <MichaelEdelstein> Excuse me, Adam. I'm from Brooklyn.

[21:49] <jaqeboy> Boston's like a country cross roads compared to NYC

[21:49] <Lindsey> I love New York

[21:49] <Lindsey> Hehe

[21:49] <jnoyes> does anyone know of any local currency initives or LETS systems in NH(like Ithica hours)

[21:49] <Lindsey> NYC is my favorite place ever

[21:49] <JonM> boston, fun to drive in! funner to walk in!

[21:49] <Lindsey> Hehe

[21:50] <Pat> AS aNew Yorker I can say that almost every where I go people seem nicer

[21:50] <jaqeboy> There's a Time Bank network

[21:50] <adam> NYC is a nice, exciting place to visit

[21:50] <JonM> I was in boston on the day of game 1

[21:50] <jnoyes> where

[21:50] <matthew> Liberty Dollars is linked off of the FSP website.

[21:50] <jaqeboy> and the Monadnock Freedom Forum had a seminar on community currencies

[21:50] <Kat> George Reich is involved in some alternate gold currency

[21:50] <freedomfred> Quite frankly, I have NEVER had a problem with a Bostonian. I've had a couple of probems with some idiots in the Greater Boston area. But as a whole, most are cool.

[21:51] <Pat> I almost fell over in Keene this spring when a cop said "good mornning sir " to me.

[21:51] <matthew> http://libertydollar.org/

[21:51] <Kat> I believe you Fred...that's just what I was told before I got here

[21:51] <JonM> most individuals are nice, it's groups that cause problems

[21:51] <Rich_T> GoldMoney.com is run by a guy in NH.

[21:51] <Adam_Selene> What about e-gold? Anyone keen on that?

[21:51] <Kat> Keene police have been nice, ya

[21:51] <jnoyes> currency backed by gold is rather sketchysince the federal reserve managed to steal much of it all ready

[21:51] <jaqeboy> e-gold works

[21:51] <jaqeboy> used on ebay, etc.

[21:51] <JonM> better than backed by hope

[21:51] <Kat> They had that proposed law to pay NH employees with gold

[21:51] <MichaelEdelstein> Everyone I've met in my recent trips to NH has been nice.

[21:52] <jsorens> fsp accepts e-gold

[21:52] <Lindsey> Look! It's a saint!

[21:52] <adam> Kat, tell me a little about Rochester. Are there any colleges within 1/2 hr that offer eveining classes?

[21:52] <stpeter> heh

[21:52] * stpeter listens in

[21:52] <svillee> I have accounts with e-gold, e-bullion, goldmoney and pecunix. No problems with any of them.

[21:52] <Rich_T> adam - UNH Durham is within that distance.

[21:52] <freedomfred> On the police front -- Mass police are problematic. As are Nashua police. Concord police are cool, as are the State police.

[21:53] <Kat> I'd love to be able to tell you about Rochester, but I don't know. George Reich lives near there and has offered to answer questions. You could try him at greich@freestateproject.org

[21:53] <freedomfred> NH State police, that is.

[21:53] <jaqeboy> when more of you are up here, we'll have more critical mass for having a side money system

[21:53] <jaqeboy> whether gold, or lets, or whatever

[21:53] <Adam_Selene> anyone who wants to help me test my new account please send some e-gold to account number 1041461 ;)

[21:53] <jnoyes> do they have speeding/parking tickets in NH

[21:53] <MichaelEdelstein> Do they look the other way when confronted with pot smokers?

[21:53] <Kat> lol Adam

[21:53] <JonM> speeding yes

[21:53] <jaqeboy> parking tix yet

[21:53] <jaqeboy> yes

[21:53] <JonM> be careful on those on ramps

[21:53] <freedomfred> parking, yes, in the urban area.

[21:54] <adam> What is alternate gold?

[21:54] <jnoyes> kind of a conflict of interest dont you think

[21:54] <jaqeboy> comeup and help us restore the streets to the people

[21:54] <jnoyes> all in time

[21:54] <jaqeboy> right to travel, right to park, etc.

[21:54] <Lindsey> Why would they not have parking tickets?

[21:54] <Lindsey> Heh

[21:54] <jnoyes> I plan on running for office

[21:54] <Kat> The streets for the people!!

[21:54] <Mallory> I know, seriously

[21:55] <jaqeboy> because you pay for the streets once in taxes, and you have a right to use of the public ways

[21:55] <Bramblecroft> So the goal is 20,000 libertarians anywhere in NH? Not in a central place?

[21:55] <jnoyes> but not til I pay back my school loans and can actually make a living there ;)

[21:55] <freedomfred> I wouldn't do pot in Nashua. Outside of Nashua you should be ok.

[21:55] <Pat> Did any body have the thought that theNH state police might be um told to be on thelook outforout of state cars to ticket at the next porc fest compliments of the new govener?

[21:55] <Kat> anywhere in NH

[21:55] <Kat> Hi Stephen

[21:55] <Kurt2> wow lots of people

[21:55] <Kurt2> this is great

[21:55] <StephenBennett> Hey Kat! First time here.

[21:55] <Kurt2> I saw something on th FSP in the news

[21:55] <Kurt2> were any of you in there?

[21:55] <StephenBennett> You all forced me to install IE

[21:55] <Kat> :) nice to see you here

[21:55] <freedomfred> I'd have a hard time believing the NH state police would do that.

[21:56] <StephenBennett> so it took awhile

[21:56] <JonM> bramble: the goal is 20,000 activists, not just voters

[21:56] <Kat> The news where, Kurt?

[21:56] <JonM> spread out works better for activists, they are to convince others to vote for change

[21:56] * stpeter wonders if there are 20,000 activists for freedom on the whole planet ;-)

[21:56] <JonM> yeah, but they're dying in other countries

[21:56] <Kurt2> kat some clip on the internet actually

[21:56] <JonM> we're trying to head that off early

[21:56] <jnoyes> hey we are 6000 so far maybe we can sponsor immigrants

[21:57] <Pat> just a thought

[21:57] <JonM> we have a few

[21:57] <Lindsey> They're all from Red China

[21:57] <Lindsey> :-P

[21:57] <Kat> Was it a particular channel, Kurt?

[21:57] <StephenBennett> I've read about some people in France liking the FSP

[21:57] <stpeter> how about an exchange program with the Movemiento Libertario in Costa Rica?

[21:57] <Pat> some times Iam paraniod

[21:57] <Kurt2> kat can't remember

[21:57] <matthew> wow, 6000 in NH already?

[21:57] <Adam_Selene> I hail from 14,000 km away

[21:57] <JonM> 6000 signed up to move

[21:57] <Kat> Jason was in the Boston TV show

[21:57] <adam> Thanks for the info Kat. I'll contact George

[21:57] <StephenBennett> Don't know what their nationality is, but they were blogging about us

[21:57] <matthew> ah, signed up to move. i am one of those.

[21:57] <Rich_T> we could offer to swap a socialist in NH for a libertarian in another state. LIke an exchange program.

[21:57] <Kat> 311 in NH

[21:57] <JonM> yeah, about that hair Jason . . .

[21:57] <Kurt2> how many have confirmed moving? 60?

[21:58] <Kurt2> nice 311

[21:58] <Kat> great, Rich!

[21:58] <stpeter> ... http://www.libertario.org/en/

[21:58] <JonM> 311 includes those there pre-vote

[21:58] <Kurt2> on an article on the fsp site it says 51

[21:58] <Rich_T> if they trade houses, can probably have to tax consequence either!

[21:58] <Kat> about that, Kurt...more have actually moved

[21:58] <Kurt2> awesome

[21:58] <Kurt2> I'll probably move in the next few years

[21:58] <Kat> My daughter and I are two :)

[21:58] <Kurt2> I'm in Winnipeg right now

[21:58] <Kat> cool

[21:58] <Kurt2> I'm 24

[21:59] <Kat> lol

[21:59] <matthew> as I am i kurt

[21:59] <StephenBennett> My socialist "friend" here in NH are energized after Benson going down

[21:59] <matthew> for the next month and half anway.

[21:59] <StephenBennett> (I'm 24 too!)

[21:59] <matthew> my wife, and 2 kids will make 4 :)

[21:59] <JonM> he ddn't go down by much

[21:59] <adam> Did you all read the FSP article in the Washington Times, NWE two months ago. It was a entire page!!

[21:59] <jnoyes> Id say we take the long view

[21:59] <jsorens> the fsp was featured in a major french tv program recently

[21:59] <Kurt2> I'm single

[21:59] <Kat> Yeah, that article was great

[21:59] <Kurt2> I live with my brother right now

[21:59] <Kurt2> he's 20

[22:00] <JonM> NH's vote was split so down the middle the cnn map has almost no shading

[22:00] <JonM> only lower left with Keene

[22:00] <StephenBennett> (Kurt, I was kidding. 24 was long ago. But I'm single too!)

[22:00] <Kurt2> next election nh will go libertarian for sure

[22:00] <jnoyes> hey kat: what the male female split in FSP for those of us who are single?

[22:00] <svillee> I would think it would be easier for a French person to move to Andorra than to NH.

[22:00] <Kat> oh I was gonna say, Stephen!

[22:00] <MichaelEdelstein> We should start looking for a libertarian candidate for Governer.

[22:00] <adam> I was surprised that Benson lost. Hope the new residents can get him back in next time around.

[22:01] <Kurt2> I'm German

[22:01] <Kurt2> and Injun

[22:01] <JonM> benson was hammered on ethical issues

[22:01] <jsorens> i think andorra does restrict immigration tightly tho (as does monaco)

[22:01] <Kat> I'm not sure. I think it's about 60/40. I could do a partial survey

[22:01] <Adam_Selene> The research I've done on NH has left me a little disappointed I must say

[22:01] <JonM> tons of ads on boston TV and radio

[22:01] <adam> Trumped up!

[22:01] <MichaelEdelstein> Perhaps Badnarik will move here and run for Governor.

[22:01] <JonM> god knows how much was on NH tv and radio

[22:01] <svillee> More tightly than US?

[22:01] <Adam_Selene> NH seems to me to be very Conservative, not Libertarian at all

[22:01] <Kat> you have to be a resident for 7 years before you can run for gov

[22:02] <JonM> seems maybe, but isn't

[22:02] <JonM> no helmet law

[22:02] <jaqeboy> it is conservative, by tradition

[22:02] <MichaelEdelstein> In what way do you think it's conservative/

[22:02] <matthew> Consevative and Libertarian are not mutually exclusive.

[22:02] <jsorens> yeah, more tightly than the us, certainly for gaining citizenship - b/c theyre small, theyre very sensitive about any influx of people

[22:02] <Rich_T> Badnarik said he was looking at Gov of TX race.

[22:02] <StephenBennett> Folks, I took Craig's defeat pretty hard. I had some hope for the direction of the state, and am so far a little bit wondering if poeple are going to actually move here and make ther difference we all committed to

[22:02] <matthew> fiscally conservative

[22:02] <JonM> well, old style conservative not neo-con if anything

[22:02] <matthew> yeanot neo-con

[22:02] <jnoyes> yeah you should see what the gop uses as conviction statement too bad theyre leaders dont hold true to line

[22:02] <Rich_T> We are looking at some LPNH candidates already, for those who care.

[22:02] <jsorens> adam - no state is libertarian. that's the reason we need the fsp! but nh has some libertarian leanings, and is small enough to influence.

[22:03] <Kat> Funny story: riding with oldtimer NH resident...guy about 80...get to VT border, grumble grumble, seatbelt on. Then when we get back to NH border, seatbelt immediately goes off

[22:03] <JonM> NH has an ingrained political activity that makes many people willing to listen to other ideas

[22:03] <jnoyes> how is governer elected in NH

[22:03] <StephenBennett> Kat, it's the principle of it, not that it's smart. :-)

[22:03] <freedomfred> I think Craig's defeat was an abberation of the national politics.

[22:03] <JonM> popular vote, every 2 years

[22:03] <Rich_T> The Dems pulled out all the stops to win NH. Stuff no one here has ever seen.

[22:03] <Bramblecroft> Is there any particular area other than NH that has a high concentration of libertarians?

[22:03] <adam> Jason, I agree

[22:04] <Kat> The dems had so many people up from MASS

[22:04] <stpeter> Bramblecroft: Alaska?

[22:04] <jnoyes> representative or direct popular vote?

[22:04] <jaqeboy> direct

[22:04] <Rich_T> party membership follows the population spread of the state. I can check the old registration list for a wider sample.

[22:04] <Kat> Stephen, it really cracked me up

[22:04] <jnoyes> wow maybe we should go door to door

[22:04] <adam> Didn't NH have libratarians as their second party behind Republicans a number of years back?

[22:04] <jsorens> sry, didnt mean to confuse, my comment was directed to adam_selene :)

[22:05] <StephenBennett> Yeah, and I wonder about Benson going down, since this state was the only one that the exit polls were right about. And I heard about buses with voters (late registrants) in them. Would love to know if that is true. Anybody else hear of that?

[22:05] <JonM> if they don't get rid of fusion, should be possible to get people elected

[22:05] <stpeter> fusion is pretty key

[22:05] <Kat> just what you heard, Stephen

[22:05] <Rich_T> Tons of new voters this year. Yes, they were driving them to the polls.

[22:05] <JonM> straight ticket balloting is under attack too

[22:05] <Rich_T> I so hope we can get rid of straight ticket.

[22:05] <freedomfred> I had dem get out the vote people hitting my door virtually every day just before the election.

[22:05] <StephenBennett> Registered from where? I wonder if many are really living in Mass?

[22:05] <JonM> straight ticket helps fusion

[22:06] <MichaelEdelstein> I heard the Dems were voting early and often--no matter how long they'd been dead.

[22:06] <Kat> I had 3 phone calls from dems on election day

[22:06] <jsorens> sounds as if same-day registration needs to go, almost an open invitation to fraud

[22:06] <svillee> Why would they bus MA people to vote for NH governor? Why would MA people care who is governor of NH?

[22:06] <StephenBennett> Right, Jason

[22:06] <JonM> they have same day because they don't have motor voter

[22:06] <jsorens> ah, i see, another flouting of the feds eh? id rather make that tradeoff though...

[22:06] <JonM> sv: they've been alleged to bus in college kids to throw local elections

[22:06] <adam> Benson didn't lose by much and he will be a strong advocate for FSP

[22:07] <freedomfred> In NH, you can register right at the polls.

[22:07] <Rich_T> the allegeded MA voter in NH is for president, not governor, mostly.

[22:07] <adam> 30 days minimum.

[22:07] <StephenBennett> Well, when I was at a Debate, there were buses of Teamsters up from MAss, and they even brought up a large Tractor/Trailer

[22:07] <jsorens> they couldve just come to vote for kerry & then cast the straight ticket

[22:07] <JonM> same day registration is how Jesse Venture became governor of Minnesota

[22:07] <adam> ME too!

[22:08] <StephenBennett> And then hit a friend of mine (who was holding a Benson sign) on the head, bloody mess

[22:08] <svillee> Oh I see, so they can vote twice, once in MA and once in NH

[22:08] <StephenBennett> Not too much blood actually, but makes for good press

[22:08] <JonM> the problem is there were no ID checks in NH

[22:08] <Kat> oh did you know that girl?

[22:08] <JonM> you could just have a "neighbor" vouch for you

[22:08] <StephenBennett> Yes, I do

[22:08] <JonM> but then, I've never been ID'd in MA to vote either

[22:08] *** Bramblecroft (~Bramblecroft@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.nas12.columbus1.oh.us.da.qwest.net) has left #FSP

[22:08] <Kat> That was really ugly :(

[22:08] <StephenBennett> (She lived)

[22:08] <StephenBennett> :-)

[22:09] <jsorens> and nh was known to be a swing state, ma wasnt...

[22:09] <JonM> give address, give name, get ballot, vote, give address, give name, feed it to machine

[22:09] <adam> Good night, talk to you next time! Enjoyed this

[22:09] *** adam (~adam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.maine.rr.com) has left #FSP

[22:09] <StephenBennett> Well, my guess is that they voted both places

[22:09] <jsorens> i was id'ed in ct, and we dont have same-day reg either

[22:09] <JonM> at least they stopped posting the voting list outside the polling place

[22:09] <StephenBennett> Neither was I

[22:09] <StephenBennett> No signature was required either

[22:10] <JonM> in Florida I had a voting ID card

[22:10] <StephenBennett> No ID, no signature, no vouch

[22:10] <JonM> but I moved away before I ever voted in person

[22:10] <MichaelEdelstein> How influential is the taxpayer's assoc. in NH?

[22:10] <Rich_T> they keep trying to get a basic "show an ID" law in NH, but it always gets defeated. Maybe with all the stories of alleged voting irregularities it may have a push to get though.

[22:10] *** irc_chat is now known as SkippyBob

[22:10] <JonM> and we know what happens to military absentee ballots there

[22:10] <JonM> the problem is show an id is so anti-libertarian <G>

[22:11] <StephenBennett> Geesh, and we had a friend in Craig Benson. I seriuosly doubt the same treatment by Lynch

[22:11] <JonM> lynch has a republican state house to deal with

[22:11] <StephenBennett> Well, that's why we should be able to vouch

[22:11] <StephenBennett> and we should have more polling places

[22:11] <freedomfred> Personally, I like not having to show an ID, but anyone who abuses that should go to jail.

[22:11] <jsorens> lynch will not go out of his way to do anything for us, thats probably true. but he will be a weak gov, facing a repub legislature & exec council

[22:11] <StephenBennett> manned by people who know everyone

[22:11] <jaqeboy> Michael, there are 2 good powerful state-wide taxpayers groups

[22:12] <JonM> and just 2 years, though I believe Benson holds a record as the first first term governor seeking re-election to be defeated

[22:12] <jaqeboy> and many local city or town groups

[22:12] <StephenBennett> Yes, but Dave Wheeler (closet Libertarian) got defeated at the Exec Council too

[22:12] <JonM> most of the politcs that affect you in NH occur at the town/city level

[22:12] <StephenBennett> By a dem

[22:12] <jnoyes> hey a little polling: could you guys state what you dont like about the independent, green, and constitution parties

[22:12] <stpeter> JonM: I think the last one was in 1952 or something

[22:12] * stpeter googles

[22:12] <MichaelEdelstein> jageboy: In which cities are the two groups based?

[22:13] <StephenBennett> My brother said that the Constitutionalists got a big showing in UTAH

[22:13] <freedomfred> Darn -- I like Dave Wheeler. He came to the Parents Rights March in DC back in 98 or 99.

[22:13] <StephenBennett> (he lives in Salt Lake City)

[22:13] <Kat> Cool stephen

[22:13] <StephenBennett> Right Fred. Good guy, liberty oriented

[22:13] <Rich_T> Wheeler also helped out someone with a gun permit even though he lived outside his district.

[22:14] <JonM> 6168, count is going up today

[22:14] <jaqeboy> Coalition of New Hampshire Taxpayers, President Ed Naile, Deering

[22:14] <jaqeboy> http://www.cnht.org

[22:14] *** Mallory (Mallory@xxxxxxxx.ipt.aol.com) has left #FSP

[22:14] <JonM> maybe 7000 by dec 31 isn't a pipe dream after all

[22:14] <jaqeboy> Granite State Taxpayers, was Roy Stewart, President, ? town

[22:14] <StephenBennett> Jon, like you said, the local politics matter most. That's the bummer (results from the elections)

[22:14] <MichaelEdelstein> Thanks, j'boy.

[22:15] <freedomfred> I think many who got kicked out this time around will have a good chance to get back in in two years.

[22:15] <JonM> stephen: the real stuff happens in the spring, if you have town meeting that's better

[22:15] <jsorens> some of the worst statists got kicked out too, apparently

[22:15] <MichaelEdelstein> Does anyone know what city the Granite State Taxpayers are based in?

[22:15] <StephenBennett> Yeah, but I can tell you the Craig's going back to business

[22:15] <jaqeboy> will try tofind out Michael

[22:15] <stpeter> "first challenger since 1926 to defeat a first-term governor seeking reelection in New Hampshire" ... source: http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2004/11/03/governor_challenger_declares_win_in_nh/

[22:15] <StephenBennett> (after the good ole boys habded him his ass)

[22:15] <StephenBennett> handed

[22:15] <MichaelEdelstein> Thanks, jboy.

[22:15] <JonM> it was what, 13,000 votes?

[22:16] <jsorens> there is also citizens for a sound economy, they are strong in bedford

[22:16] <JonM> all people there to give NH to kerry

[22:16] <JonM> didn't CSE walk away from the bedford branch?

[22:16] <MichaelEdelstein> Jason, Does CSE focus on NH issues?

[22:16] <jsorens> yes

[22:16] <JonM> I recall some sort of riff

[22:16] <jsorens> you may be right jon

[22:17] <jsorens> i just know the bedford cse guy posts on the fsp forum occasionally

[22:17] <JonM> CSE was fighting tooth and nail on some shady school votes

[22:17] <StephenBennett> I hear that Goiv Benson really pissed off Concord (the legislature olf timers) and they worked for his defeat

[22:17] <stpeter> CSE is a national organization with local affiliates

[22:17] <MichaelEdelstein> Great! Do you know of any of their NH accomplishments?

[22:17] <JonM> I do believe bedford students still go to manchester <g>

[22:17] <stpeter> MichaelEdelstein: I don't, no

[22:18] <Rich_T> CSE did stop a bond issue or tax increase last year in a special election.

[22:18] <StephenBennett> And I was also bummed to see the Contitutional amendment go down, especially in light of the recent S.C. "rulings"

[22:18] <StephenBennett> Constitutional

[22:18] <Rich_T> the voter guide on Q1 got pulled, which hurt it's chances to reach 67% needed.

[22:18] <StephenBennett> (Even though we got 60K votes more than "no")

[22:18] <Anon4815> Michael, just one quick GST item: http://www.politicsnh.com/press_releases/2004/Oct/10_21por.htm

[22:18] <stpeter> were there local elections in NH this year? I have not seen coverage of them

[22:19] <JonM> But now, according to a statement from the national headquarters of Citizens for a Sound Economy, the Bedford group has lost its affiliation with the national parent organization, due to its focus on local issues in Bedford and the consequent exclusion of CSE?s national agenda.

[22:19] <jsorens> heres an item from bedford cse: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=44;action=display;threadid=6247;start=msg91381#msg91381

[22:19] <MichaelEdelstein> Thanks, anon.

[22:19] <stpeter> ah, who needs national parent organization?

[22:20] <Rich_T> Derry also has a good taxpayers group.

[22:20] <jaqeboy> Nashua Taxpayers Association - NTA

[22:20] <JonM> national CSE is no more

[22:20] <JonM> it's merged with Empower America

[22:20] <MichaelEdelstein> Rich, do you know their name?

[22:20] <StephenBennett> Hey, Jason, I know you must get this q a lot, but anyway . . . How are the recruiting efforts going?

[22:20] <JonM> better than before, not as good as it could be

[22:20] <StephenBennett> (And what can I do besides signing up the 5 people I have)

[22:21] <Rich_T> derrytax.org

[22:21] <MichaelEdelstein> Stephen: get the word out, inform others.

[22:21] <FTL_Ian> Stephen: I can answer. They just jumped.

[22:21] <FTL_Ian> Let's keep them rising.

[22:21] <MichaelEdelstein> Thanks, Rich.

[22:21] <Rich_T> isn't there a recruiting chat coming up?

[22:22] <Kat> Yes, next week

[22:22] <Lindsey> If anyone cares, I wore a Badnarik sign on my butt on Monday all day at school to make an attempt at advertisement

[22:22] <Lindsey> :-P

[22:22] <jsorens> well, recruiting is still below where it needs to be. we are trying new things, such as a direct mailing to mass libertarians, and possibly a radio campaign in maryland.

[22:22] <JonM> stephen: get the url tattooed on your forehead!

[22:22] * FTL_Ian laughs

[22:22] <Kat> hello!

[22:22] <jsorens> website traffic has increased significantly over the past couple of weeks, and signups have increased some too

[22:22] <StephenBennett> Hey, I have to take a telephone call for awhile (from the West Coast). Will be back in a few . . .

[22:23] <FTL_Ian> jsorens: FSP ads run during Free Talk Live, worldwide.

[22:23] <Lindsey> People were amused by the fact that I had the word BADNARIK on my ass...

[22:23] <Lindsey> Yes...terrible FSP ads

[22:23] <Lindsey> :-P

[22:23] <FTL_Ian> I'm writing a new one

[22:23] <Kat> a tattoo, Lindsey?

[22:23] <FTL_Ian> :P

[22:23] <MichaelEdelstein> How's contributions, with the new messages on the website?

[22:23] <jsorens> writing lte's, posting flyers, handing out brochures at events, and talking to friends are still extremely effective ways of getting the word out that don't cost (much) money

[22:23] <stpeter> is The Quill still being published?

[22:23] <JonM> jason: I tried to recruit Barbara Anderson, of Citizens for Limited Taxation and Government...no luck so far, she hasn't given up on MA yet

[22:23] <Lindsey> Oh Jesus...who's doing the recording for the new one?

[22:23] <jsorens> yes, the quill is coming back! it was in hiatus for a couple of months as the editor moved to nh.

[22:23] <jnoyes> can we make FSP bumper stickers?

[22:23] <FTL_Ian> I highly suggest all porcs call all their prospects again, post election, and ask them to join again.

[22:24] <Lindsey> No, not a tatto, just a piece of paper taped to my pants

[22:24] <Lindsey> :-P

[22:24] <stpeter> jsorens: super!

[22:24] <FTL_Ian> You'll be shocked at your success rate.

[22:24] <Lindsey> Tattoo, either

[22:24] <freedomfred> I'll have to give some thought to how to reach Libertarian-minded folks on line using SEO techniques.

[22:24] <jsorens> contributions were very good in our recent campaign. we have a decent amount in our bank account for ads, press releases, & mailings

[22:24] <JonM> I don't ever recall getting anything that would suggest they sold their mailing list though

[22:25] <jsorens> obviously, doing radio & tv seriously would require us to take fundraising to the next level.

[22:25] <Lindsey> I kind of like Ian's terrible FSP spots

[22:25] <JonM> jason: nah, you just need to be arrested in a tremendous scandal, plenty of TV and radio coverage then

[22:25] <stpeter> I think the thing that will really start to pull in recruits is some practical, on-the-ground results in NH (even of a preliminary nature)

[22:25] <Lindsey> :-P

[22:25] <FTL_Ian> Lindsey, I didn't write them

[22:25] <Lindsey> I just love Free Talk Live, because I'm a dork

[22:26] <JonM> hey karl

[22:26] <MichaelEdelstein> stpeter: we've had a few.

[22:26] <jsorens> no publicity is bad publicity, right? ;)

[22:26] <Kat> hi Karl

[22:26] <Lindsey> Oh you didn't write that horridness?

[22:26] <stpeter> bbiab

[22:26] <Lindsey> :-P

[22:26] <Karl_Beisel> Hi folks.

[22:26] <jaqeboy> hey Karl

[22:26] <Lindsey> Well they were still likeable in that awful way

[22:26] <Lindsey> Lol

[22:26] <freedomfred> Hello

[22:26] <jsorens> well i gotta go. nice chatting with you all!

[22:26] <Lindsey> But it would make it better of you wrote them

[22:26] <Lindsey> :-P

[22:26] <MichaelEdelstein> Bye, Jason.

[22:26] <Kat> 'night Jason

[22:26] <JonM> exactly jason, and that would have legs, "Yale professor and founder of the Free State Project arrested at local farm in questionable circumstances, more at 11"

[22:27] <Lindsey> if*

[22:27] <Lindsey> Jesus...someone should cut off my hands

[22:27] <jsorens> 'night

[22:27] <FTL_Ian> goodnight